[I] quit chelating around seven months ago to do liver and colon cleansing and just recently did my third annual hair test. When the results arrived, I was very upset to see my copper has gone back up. It went from 560 to 170 to 280 (whereas the reference range is 11 – 30). First I’ll show you the results compared with my previous two hair tests and then show you all the questions I’ve wanted to answer. I’m documenting all this research because my memory is so impaired, it’s likely one of the things that caused me to drop the ball on lowering my copper!
Why should I care about high copper?
- copper antagonizes potassium – low potassium results in tight muscles and other problems.
- copper imbalances are highly associated with most psychological, emotional and often neurological conditions. These include memory loss, especially in young people, depression, anxiety, bipolar disorder, schizophrenia and others discussed below.
- copper toxicity symptoms are very similar to mercury (Dr. Cutler) – in other words, very serious.
- the places where copper accumulates are the liver first, then the brain and the reproductive organs. because copper targets the liver, it gets in the way of heavy metal chelation using ALA and other chelators that rely on bile secretion.
- copper and vitamin C are direct antagonists. This means that they oppose each other in the body. This is one reason many people feel better taking a lot of vitamin C. Copper tends to oxidize and destroy vitamin C in the body. Meanwhile, vitamin C chelates or removes copper from the body. This requires a dose of vitamin C of at least about 500 mg daily, far higher than the minimum daily requirement of about 60 mg. On the other hand, two small studies in healthy, young adult men indicate that the oxidase activity of ceruloplasmin may be impaired by relatively high doses of supplemental vitamin C – I don’t know what that means but I can’t find any suggestion anywhere that vitamin C is harmful in the case of copper toxicity, just the opposite in fact: “Vitamin C can and does do miraculous things for patients afflicted with toxic levels of copper.”
Is hair testing for copper a reliable indicator of body copper?
According to Dr. Cutler, hair testing is “believed to accurately reflect body inventory” either when mineral transport is normal or deranged (when showing high/red). since all three of my hair tests have shown extreme high toxic levels of copper.
What are the possible causes of high copper?
- adrenal weakness – low hair levels of sodium and potassium and a low ratio of sodium to potassium have been found to correlate with adrenal weakness or insufficiency. This reduces the body’s ability to produce ceruloplasmin, and thus reduces its ability to transport and remove excess copper. Low ceruloplasmin allows unbound copper to build up in the body tissues. Definitely me.
- drinking water – either through copper pipes or spring water that is high in copper. Neither apply to me.
- environmental exposure – I don’t believe this applies to me
- genetic flaws – possibly in metallothionein (MT) genes, molybdenum cofactors GPHN and MOCS1 or MOCS2, or the Wilson’s disease protein ATP7B. Here are livewello reports on my ATP7B SNPs, GPHN SNPs, and MOCS1 & 2 genes (lots of yellow and red in the first two).The ATP7B gene provides instructions for making a protein called copper-transporting ATPase 2. This protein is part of the P-type ATPase family, a group of proteins that transport metals into and out of cells by using energy stored in the molecule adenosine triphosphate (ATP). Copper-transporting ATPase 2 is found primarily in the liver, with smaller amounts in the kidneys and brain. It plays a role in the transport of copper from the liver to other parts of the body. Copper is an important part of certain enzymes that maintain normal cell functions. Copper-transporting ATPase 2 is also important for the removal of excess copper from the body.Within liver cells, copper-transporting ATPase 2 is found in a structure called the Golgi apparatus, which modifies newly produced enzymes and other proteins. Here, copper-transporting ATPase 2 supplies copper to a protein called ceruloplasmin, which transports copper to other parts of the body via the blood. If copper levels in the liver get too high, copper-transporting ATPase 2 leaves the Golgi and transfers copper to small sacs (vesicles) for elimination through bile. Bile is a substance produced by the liver that is important for digestion and the removal of waste products.
The GPHN gene provides instructions for making a protein called gephyrin, which has two major functions in the body: the protein aids in the formation (biosynthesis) of a molecule called molybdenum cofactor, and it also plays a role in communication between nerve cells (neurons).Gephyrin performs the final two steps in molybdenum cofactor biosynthesis. Molybdenum cofactor, which contains the element molybdenum, is essential to the function of several enzymes called sulfite oxidase, aldehyde oxidase, xanthine dehydrogenase, and mitochondrial amidoxime reducing component (mARC). These enzymes help break down (metabolize) different substances in the body, some of which are toxic if not metabolized. - liver sluggishness or toxicity – yes, this probably applies to me or did. I’m confident I’m well on my way to fixing this one.
- mercury toxicity – derangement of mineral transport by mercury is closely associated with copper accumulation (Dr. Cutler). I believe I’m one of those cases discussed by Dr. Cutler with hidden mercury, I have the symptoms and patterns but the mercury doesn’t show on the hair test. Also my significant lead increases the toxicity of the Mercury I do have by 18 times.
- plant-based diets – that’s not me!
Can my 23andme results tell me anything about my copper problem?
I loaded my 23andme data into Promethease.com and found out that of 8 SNP’s checked, I have 6 good and 2 not classified. This report cost five dollars and is really really interesting. Here are a few tidbits from my report showing how awesome I will be once I detoxify my body:
- “You are part of the 12% of the population who can lose weight with any type of exercise”
- “Any diet works for you”
- “Better performing muscles. Likely sprinter. This genotype indicates better performing muscles, particularly for sprinting and power sports.“
- “Better odds of living to 100”
- “Optimistic and empathetic; handle stress well The one in four subjects who inherited a variation in this allele called G/G were significantly better at accurately reading the emotions of others by observing their faces than were the remaining three-quarters of subjects, who had inherited either a pair of A’s or an A and a G from their parents at this site. . . . also less likely to startle when blasted by a loud noise, or to become stressed at the prospect of such a noise. And by their own reports, the G/G subjects were mellower and more attuned to other people than were the A/As or A/Gs.”
Now, let’s see what Livewello.com can tell me…
| ATP7B GENE [ WILSON’S DISEASE ]. | ||||
|---|---|---|---|---|
| SNP | rsID | Minor Allele | Genotype | Phenotype |
| ATP7B | rs1051332 | T | CT | +/- |
| ATP7B | rs1061472 | C | CT | +/- |
| ATP7B | rs17076111 | C | TT | -/- |
| ATP7B | rs1801243 | C | AC | +/- |
| ATP7B | rs1801246 | T | CC | -/- |
| ATP7B | rs1801248 | T | CC | -/- |
| ATP7B | rs1801249 | A | AG | +/- |
| ATP7B | rs1924609 | G | AG | +/- |
| ATP7B | rs2147363 | T | GG | -/- |
| ATP7B | rs2277447 | T | CC | -/- |
| ATP7B | rs2277448 | G | GT | +/- |
| ATP7B | rs2282057 | A | AG | +/- |
| ATP7B | rs2296246 | A | AC | +/- |
| ATP7B | rs3825526 | A | AC | +/- |
| ATP7B | rs3825527 | G | AG | +/- |
| ATP7B | rs41292782 | A | GG | -/- |
| ATP7B | rs4943046 | G | AG | +/- |
| ATP7B | rs59120265 | C | TT | -/- |
| ATP7B | rs60986317 | A | GG | -/- |
| ATP7B | rs61733679 | T | CC | -/- |
| ATP7B | rs61733680 | C | TT | -/- |
| ATP7B | rs72552259 | T | CC | -/- |
| ATP7B | rs732071 | G | AG | +/- |
| ATP7B | rs7321909 | C | CT | +/- |
| ATP7B | rs732774 | C | CT | +/- |
| ATP7B | rs7334118 | C | TT | -/- |
| ATP7B | rs747781 | C | CT | +/- |
| ATP7B | rs754610 | A | AG | +/- |
| ATP7B | rs76151636 | T | – | NG |
| ATP7B | rs9526812 | C | CT | +/- |
| ATP7B | rs9526814 | G | GT | +/- |
| ATP7B | rs9526816 | C | TT | -/- |
| ATP7B | rs9535794 | A | GG | -/- |
| ATP7B | rs9535809 | T | CC | -/- |
| ATP7B | rs9535828 | A | AG | +/- |
| Legend | |
|---|---|
| -/- | Neither chromosome carries a genetic variation. Green does not mean “normal”. It only means that the genotype does not contain the less common allele.) |
| +/- | Heterozygous i.e a chromosome from one parent, carries a variation (Yellow does not mean “abnormal”. It only means that the genotype contains 1 copy of the less common allele.) |
| +/+ | Homozygous i.e a chromosome from each parent carries a variation. (Red does not mean “abnormal”. It only means that the genotype contains 2 copies of the less common allele.) |
Report notes:
Wilson disease protein is associated with ATP7B gene [1]
Wilson disease protein (WND), also known as ATP7B protein, is a copper-transporting P-type ATPase which is encoded by the ATP7B gene. ATP7B protein locates in trans-Golgi network of liver and brain, balances the copper level in the body by excrete excess copper into bile and plasma.
Genetic disorder of ATP7B gene may cause Wilson’s disease, a disease in which copper accumulates in tissues leading to neurological or psychiatric issues and liver diseases.
Wilson disease happens when accumulation of copper inside the liver causes mitochondrial damage and cell destruction and shows symptoms of hepatic disease. Then, the loss of excretion of copper in bile leads to an increasing concentration of copper level in urine and causes kidney problems. Therefore, symptoms of Wilson disease could be various including kidney disease and neurological disease.[8] The major cause is the malfunction of ATP7B[8] by single base pair mutations, deletions, frame-shifts, splice errors in ATP7B gene.[1]
So, we can see in my case, 51% of the 35 ATP7B genes checked by this report have genetic variations – maybe I should consider copper chelation with pharmaceuticals… And there’s more:
The GPHN gene provides instructions for making a protein called gephyrin, which has two major functions in the body: the protein aids in the formation (biosynthesis) of a molecule called molybdenum cofactor, and it also plays a role in communication between nerve cells (neurons). Gephyrin performs the final two steps in molybdenum cofactor biosynthesis. Molybdenum cofactor, which contains the element molybdenum, is essential to the function of several enzymes called sulfite oxidase, aldehyde oxidase, xanthine dehydrogenase, and mitochondrial amidoxime reducing component (mARC). These enzymes help break down (metabolize) different substances in the body, some of which are toxic if not metabolized. Gephyrin also plays an important role in neurons. Communication between neurons depends on chemicals called neurotransmitters. To relay signals, a neuron releases neurotransmitters, which attach to receptor proteins on neighboring neurons. Gephyrin anchors certain receptor proteins to the correct location in neurons so that the receptors can receive the signals relayed by neurotransmitters.
GPHN gene mutations cause a disorder called molybdenum cofactor deficiency. This disorder is characterized by seizures that begin early in life and brain dysfunction that worsens over time (encephalopathy); the condition is usually fatal by early childhood. At least two mutations in the GPHN gene have been found to cause a form of the disorder designated type C or complementation group C. This is the rarest form of the condition, affecting only a small number of individuals. The GPHN gene mutations involved in molybdenum cofactor deficiency likely reduce or eliminate the function of gephyrin. The known mutations impair gephyrin’s ability to perform one or both of the final two steps of molybdenum cofactor biosynthesis. Without the cofactor, the metabolic enzymes that rely on it cannot function. The resulting loss of enzyme activity leads to buildup of certain chemicals, including sulfite, S-sulfocysteine, xanthine, and hypoxanthine, and low levels of another chemical called uric acid. (Testing for these chemicals can help in the diagnosis of this condition.) Sulfite, which is normally broken down by sulfite oxidase, is toxic, especially to the brain. Researchers suggest that damage caused by the abnormally high levels of sulfite (and possibly other chemicals) leads to encephalopathy, seizures, and the other features of molybdenum cofactor deficiency.
How do people lower copper and treat copper toxicity?
This is how I lowered copper the first time, in between my first and second hair tests:
- 50 mg zinc three times a day with meals, 150 mg per day zinc total
- 1 mg molybdenum three times a day with meals, 3 mg molybdenum total
- stopped consuming outrageous quantities of high copper foods
- DMSA chelation – probably not a very significant factor based on comments by Andy Cutler.
Some additional things I’m considering now include:
- vitamin C 1 g five times a day (prevents lipid peroxidation caused by copper overload)
- melatonin – because it protects against copper-mediated free radical damage
- liposomal glutathione – seems to be involved in metabolism of copper and its excretion
Here are the copper chelators:
- BAL – toxic
- DMSA – works through the kidneys and increases excretion of copper minimally according to Dr. Cutler
- DMPS – I tried this and reacted badly to it even at low quantities (maybe because it was pulling loads of copper)
- D-penicillamine (DPA)
- triethylenetetraamine (Trientine)
- tetrathiomolybdate (TTM) – still experimental. I got very excited about it at first but then read about some sheep whose lives were saved from copper poisoning – but the sheep died a few years later and were found to have high TTM concentrations in their glands.
Studies of excretion of Cu from sweat and urine and found that sweat is the most efficient way of eliminating Cu from the body – apparently 100x more Cu eliminated from sweat than from urine. This would be very exciting for me if I were not exercise and heat intolerant!
I’m not too interested in DPA and Trientine considering the side effects. Who wants to mess with new risky substances when minerals like zinc and molybdenum can do the job?
What does Andy Cutler say about high copper?
- stopped taking high doses of zinc and molybdenum prematurely
- while chelating with ALA (which reduces copper excretion in bile)
- and tested for copper too infrequently
This is why you really want a coach to help you through chelation if you can afford it. I goofed!
A few excerpts and other comments made by Dr. Cutler:
- “the half-life of copper in the body is about a month. As copper excretion bile is reduced, the half-life lengthens. Interventions to modify copper body burden take more or less a month . . . to show their beneficial effects.”
- “Zinc inhibits copper absorption as does vitamin C.”
- “Supplements that increase bile flow will increase copper excretion.”
- “Copper toxic people who don’t have mercury have “normal looking” hair analyses with high copper. People with high copper and high mercury probably aren’t making enough bile and need to pay attention to getting their liver to do this.”
What can I learn on FDC about high copper?
- B6- 100 mgs. 2x day
- B5- 500 mgs. 2x day
- Vitamin C- I take 1000 mgs. 5x day
- Vitamin E- 400 is’s 2x day
- Vitamin A- 20,000 iu’s per day”
Why did my copper fall dramatically from test 1 to test 2?
I believe it was due to:
- 50 mg zinc three times a day with meals, 150 mg per day zinc total
- 1 mg molybdenum three times a day with meals, 3 mg molybdenum total
- stopped consuming outrageous quantities of high copper foods
Why did my copper climb again?
I foolishly stopped taking the high quantities of zinc and molybdenum before testing to make sure my copper was down all the way to healthy levels. I did this because Dr. Cutler talks about how fast copper drops and recommends hair testing once a year roughly. He might say somewhere to test more frequently with high copper but if so, I failed to pay attention. I assumed that my low copper diet would do the trick after seeing my good progress on the first test. You know what they say about assumptions.
On the other hand… there is this guy Fernando who has been getting tested for three years and his copper and mercury levels have been going up steadily at the same time as he has been feeling better and better through nutritional balancing. He’s saying that the hair test copper going up shows that his detox is working. My situation is probably a mixed one.
How badly did I screw up?
Badly enough that I wanted to cry and didn’t sleep the first night after receiving my results. I might have prolonged my suffering by close to a year. On the other hand, it’s very possible I would not have discovered liver and colon cleansing and maybe most importantly oxygen therapy. These are therapies that will help me have a more complete recovery and I’m certain will benefit my family in powerful ways as well.
How about a little entertainment here too:
There exists a high copper personality. Positive traits include a warm, caring, sensitive, emotional nature, often with artistic orientation and a child-like quality. Often high-copper people are young-looking. Many traditionally feminine traits are associated with copper such as softness, gentleness and intuitiveness.
Do I really want to lose my personality? Imagine my wife’s surprise when I turn into an athlete and a jerk after my recovery!
What should I do now?
I’ve already gone back on the high molybdenum/zinc protocol and also removed mushrooms, avocado and kale from my diet. This time, I’m not going to stop this protocol until I have proof that my copper is in range.
Hi Eric,
Thank you for sharing your journey here. I’m in a somewhat similar situation to you: I finished 200 rounds of chelating for mercury in May and started slowly reducing supplements, thinking I was finished and could finally try to get off of HC.
I finally managed to get all of my iron values up a little too high as of April, so my doc recommended I stop them completely since I’m menopausal. Since then I have become increasingly fatigued and emotional.
My original hair test 7 years ago showed low copper, but three blood tests with zinc and ceruloplasmin over the last 2 years showed high total and free copper. While the free copper has come down from 40% 2 years ago to 31% this month, my total copper has crept up.
The thing that shocked me was that my iron and % sat had plummeted since April. I have found some information that leads me to believe it is because my free copper is still too high.
I’m starting on dietary changes as well, but wanted to ask if you know if the regimen Pfieffer put you on is relatively generic for reducing copper, or is it specific to you in some way? I’m already taking all of those things (except the Vit E which I slowly stopped after May), just in much lower doses.
Thanks,
Dorothy
Hi Dorothy, you and I are not in the same league because you are a master of chelation. 200 rounds? Did I read that right? Wow. How much did it help you?
I never attended the Pfeiffer center, just copied the recommendations from someone who did attend for high copper…
hello eric.
are you aware of the website ‘acu cell’?….they are saying chromium is the most important remedy for copper toxicity closely followed by sulfur(msm)…….and then vit c molybdenum b6 etc……they say ‘zinc is the weakest of all the copper antagonists’…and that zinc only affects copper in the intestine and not the organs with the bio-unavailable copper!..
your thought on that?
i was taking 200 mg zinc picolinate(sometimes adding an extra 70 mg ionic liquid zinc)..2 mg molybdenum..b6(p5p) daily for a few months but noticed no improvement of symptoms.
i recently started adding 400-800 mcg chromium chelate to the above and it gave me terrible insomnia(only at the higher 600-800 mcg dose and on the same day of taking)…a previously sensitive tooth became a nasty toothache and i had a facial skin rash…i could feel an occasional kind of pulsing movement through both kidneys but no pain fortunately and i could feel some kind of heaviness in my liver also..
i noticed previously that high pure food vitamin c(10 grams camu camu powder and about 1300 mg vitc)the highest vit c content of any fruit in the world) when added to the zinc/moly/p5p also gave me worse insomnia after a week of taking…..and so did taking msm at 1 -2 grams with the zinc/moly/b6 after just 2 days..
i have learnt that copper affects negatively both b6 and magnesium and both of these are needed in plentiful supply for serotonin/ melatonin production and thus sleep!.
event though i stopped taking all supplements after getting the recent worse insomnia after adding chromium chelate the insomnia continued for several days until i took 4 grams of magnesium citrate one night last week (after waking after just 2 hours sleep and not being ab;e to go back to sleep yet again) and i was able to go back to sleep and that has continued since with my daily magnesium citrate intake…
since taking the chromium i have noticed an improvement in my occasional pins and needles/slight numbness in my right fingertips(which started right after supplementing zinc with added copper after just 4 days about 2 years ago)..
my other symptoms of copper toxicity are chronic sinus infection.loss of sex drive and insomnia(wake up 2-3 times during 5 hours sleep)before i remedied my b12 deficiency(also linked with serotonin/melotonin) i would wake up with a jolt and could never go back to sleep..
soon i will experiment with vit c and msm again but this time i will be taking 4 grams magnesium citrate dailty and it will be interesting to see if the magnesium this time prevents my worsening insomnia at the same vit c and msm doses that previously gave me the insomnia..
i am still a bit wary of chromium as it had such a powerful effect on me the other week and i wonder about any toxicity but it may well be justl be copper dumping?… my.toothache and the other effects have completely gone..
i hope what i mention here helps you on your journey back to health..
hey Chris, thanks for sharing that – I have read many of those pages before but has been a long time and I may not have paid careful attention. I already take 1 mg chromium but it’s the GTF form so I will switch to chelated! let’s see what happens 🙂
I’ve never noticed any effect other than an increase in fatigue which I attributed to the blood sugar affect from chromium…
hi eric…….according to acu cell the gtf chromium is in the 1-3% uptake range but the chelated form is closer to 25%….thats a big differance when you think about it…
whats amazed me with the chromium chelate is that when i was taking it for a few days or so in total it caused a severe toothache in a previously roughly year old sensitive molar but now that molar isnt even sensitive anymore…
maybe stored bio-unavailable copper in gum tissue was causing the sensitivity in the first place and then taking chromium stirred up more copper to cause the toothache and now days after stopping the chromium the copper is out of my bloodstream and gum tissue and back in organs?..
i hope the chelate form works out for you..
Hi Eric again . I was wondering if you tried consulting with connie fox about mercury and whether you used her protocol? I am looking into less drastic methods than dmps for mercury.
I never used any mercury consultant, just followed Dr. Cutler’s protocol – but too aggressively and without paying close attention to his advice about copper, which is reduce the copper burden before chelating mercury!
Hi,
I have been in dealing with my hair analysis report in the past few years and would like to offer you my experience for heavy metals detox. I use Celantro for eight months and my hair analysis report shows very good results.
http://ca.iherb.com/product-reviews/Planetary-Herbals-Cilantro-Heavy-Metal-Detox-4-fl-oz-118-28-ml/20830/?p=1
Another thing I suggest you to read Dr. L. Wilson for using zinc to reduce copper. Even your copper is very high, it still need zinc to copper 10:1 as supplements (not without copper at all).
http://www.drlwilson.com/articles/copper_toxicity_syndrome.htm
Hope this helps.
James
Thanks James, I do take 60 mg of zinc daily along with lots of other copper lowering supplements…
Eric …your a bit off base …ive tried to explain this before…u wont ever stop the minerals …u will always need them …but your taking too high of doses….and your throwing other key nutrients out of whack …and your mussing several things ….u have to find all your deficiencies…have u tested manganese rbc for example ??? Which is lowered by high dose zinc and is needed to produce dopamine in low doses …and makes digestive enzymes …and also detoxes copper …..i think you have abit of tunnel vision …theres several key nutrients that lower copper …r u taking b2? Do u have mao on genetic test ?? Do u need l carnitine for the mitochondrial defects you may be carrying ….which also lowers copper and increases acetylcholine …so many other key things you havent addressed yet !
Dana, you sound irritated with me for dawdling my way through copper detox… Well, reading just one one of my blog posts might give you tunnel vision of your own. I’m taking the full spectrum of copper lowering supplements and have been titrating up manganese with monthly rbc tests, yes I’ve tried carnitine and a few other mitochondrial supplements with no results.
Hoi Eric, I saw you run your ATP7B gene on livewello, I wanted to look at it but I can’t open it, is it possible for you to past you results here? I have the same problems with my two sons and I run the ATP7B gene for the youngest and he had 7 homozyguos mutations.for the ATP7B genen. So , I read a lot aboucoper defiency (because that is what it is) and copperoverload (the other toxic part) the last days and I am more and more convinced that it has to do with a genetic defect. Have you been checked on Wilson disease by a doctor specialized in metabolic disorders ?
Hi Martine, I logged into Livewello and searched on ATP7B and got this result “A genotype for atp7b was not found in Eric S’s genetic raw data.”
How did you get your children’s results for that gene?
I don’t think I’ve been fully checked for Wilson’s disease no I have had all of the tests recommended by Morley Robbins for copper toxicity…
Have you done the 23andmetest ? it’s that test that I have done . You have to run the results of 23andme in livewello in “MY GENE TEMPLATES” than type Wilson or ATP7B (not ATP7 A: for this gene my son had no results )then install gene template and then view report (I THink) . Here you can find a lot of info about Wilson, I think you need to check for Wilson:
http://www.eurowilson.com/en/living/guide/pathway/index.phtml
here you can find info about copper that is very valuable: I think that this genetic inability to bind copper is very very underestimated and maybe there’re many Wilson patients under these so called heavy metal poisoned , autism, CFS/ME .or may be Wilson “light= not real Wilson , so an ability that is disabled but functions to bind a little copper perhaps??”.The problem is that you’re short in bound copper (ceruloplasmin) with many consequenses (impaired SOD, immunity, yeast,…)and on the other hand you’ve unbound copper overload which is toxic to the body
:http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/mic/minerals/copper
Well, that is an eye-opener Martine! I installed the Wilsons template in Livewello and found 51% of the 35 genes checked are +/- so I just went back and reread this old post and updated it with my livewello ATP7B results and links to copper chelation options. This new information has me thinking about trying DMPS again – I especially like the fact that it is also effective for mercury and lead. I think I gave up too easily and should have tried again with lower amounts. What are you doing for your kids?
Hoi Eric, I am going to study your new results and run the extra reports concerning copper. I will have my sons checked at the Leuven university hospital for Wilson (they are an offical hospital for diagnosin g Wilson disease) and see what comes out of that. I will let you know, kind greatings ,Martine
Thanks Martine… Yesterday I realized that I had actually run that ATP7B template long ago and just forgot about it entirely. Need to reread my own blog posts once a year or so lol. Looking forward to hearing from you as you learn more.
Have you considered taking borax? I agree that Vitamin C is essential for copper detox, but I am thinking that borax is needed along with it.
I haven’t found a concrete explanation yet, maybe you can help with that part. If you are interested I can give some of the reasons that I am thinking this.
I take boron instead of borax… I’d guess they are roughly equivalents. I can’t remember precisely why but it’s recommended by all of the copper experts.
I have many symptons of Copper excess but dont have money to do hair tests. And I have this sympton:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kayser%E2%80%93Fleischer_ring
do you have?
I don’t have the Fleischer rings Eduardo and I’m guessing that might be a sign to consider copper chelation using a pharmaceutical method… I’m not an expert though so please research and be careful.
Look in to Dr. Klinghardt, he states that homeopathic copper is needed and leads to redistribution and makes the copper bio available again
thanks Andrew
Possibility of pyrrole disorder for high copper?? Wondered if you’d heard and if it may apply to you?? It’s genetic but the genes haven’t been identified as yet. My daughter has it and it affects the adrenals and causes lots of problems with energy and thoughts. But people with it are very creative personality wise.
Should mention that B6 and zinc are necessary to bring the copper down and into normal range. The pyrroles bind up the zinc in the body and it’s removed through normal processes, so zinc deficiency is a sign of pyrrole disorder. Plus, B6 is needed as it is depleted, also with the copper. Pyrrole disorder can lead to social anxiety and wanting to stay at home and isolate in a dark place. It can lead to schizophrenia like symptoms.
https://www.drlam.com/blog/pyroluria-and-adrenal-fatigue-syndrome/5273/
Pretty sure I was tested for that years ago… Thanks Cheri
What form of Zinc do you take? Do you have a specific product that you recommend?
I use Solgar’s zinc citrate 30 mg caps… can’t really say whether I recommend it or not because I don’t recall using any other types.
Hello, I’ve seen your post on Strongy’s because I think I have them… I feel movement under my skin sometimes anyways (usually at night). I tried DE before and it was… and experience I won’t forget. But, I’m not touching that anymore lol. I found a blog on heavy metal detoxing and I recall reading about how parasites use heavy metals themselves for some reason. This is the website: http://thesupermandiet.com/detox/ . Despite the use of profanity in the article, it has some interesting information covered with the use of detoxing supplements. But the catch is, the person claims to have used a lot of money to obtain his results. I want to believe his testimony is legitimate, but I want to hear your take on heavy metal detox and if it would be better to address that, than to address parasites/yeast first. (Or heal leaky gut with diet). This whole self-diagnosing thing is making me go crazy at times because I don’t think there is a step-by-step cure known to help everyone and everyone is left to their own unique problems to deal with themselves (because if your doctor doesn’t know, who does?).
Hi Zenith, where to start is a huge issue. I’m afraid I don’t have a great answer for you. I think many people start with chelation and succeed beautifully with it. I tried to do that and hit a wall. Based on my experience, I think addressing parasites and gut health first is probably a good idea because with a bit of luck it might go very well – in a matter of 3 to 6 months you could be feeling much better and that would help you get through chelation which could take one to five years (or more) depending on lots of things…
Eric, could you please tell me what do you mean by: ◾stopped consuming outrageous quantities of high copper foods
What exactly are this foods? The reason I am asking is that I believe there is different kind of copper in avocado or octopus for example. Like vitamin D2 and D3 in foods and like carotene and real Vitamin A. There is a guy dealing with copper toxicity his name is Morley Robbins he have many years experience with minerals – it seems he came to the same conclusion.
I was eating a lot of the foods on the top 10 copper list – 2 cups of nuts a day heavy on pumpkin seeds and almonds for example. One or two avocados per day, lentils everyday, shredded coconut and so on. I’m going to have an appointment with Mr. Morley Robbins soon 🙂
I have been eating high copper foods for years with no problem.
It was only when I started being chronically stressed month after month that my copper went up and up, though I didn’t know it at the time. I just kept having strange symptoms, like movement headaches, for one. When I finally caught my high copper, doing research showed me why this happened to me: chronic stress causes excess elimination of zinc. As my zinc went down, my consumption of high copper foods caused my body to build higher and higher levels of copper. It appears I did this to myself!
Once I found my high copper, off all those foods I went in the process of lowering the high copper. And if I ever go through chronic stress again, onto zinc I’m going if I’m not already on it.
That’s really interesting Janie about stress and zinc! good for you for figuring out:)
Exactly what I expected. All this foods have copper but don’t have cofactors needed for copper to be used by the body and your body is removing it via hair instead of using it .
Please check what happened with this woman getting advice from people like Cutler and Wilson regarding copper toxicity http://www.cheap-health-revolution.com/hyperthyroidism-caused-by-copper-deficiency.html . She recovered very fast doing exactly the opposite of what so called hair mineral expert Dr. Wilson is recommending. Fortunately Morley is not so stupid or greedy like dr. Wilson and Andrew Cutler I think he will point you in the correct path.
Interesting story Peter and it makes me feel a little more overwhelmed about the complexity of the copper issue. I’m looking forward to getting help from someone a lot more knowledgeable and sharper than I am!
One thing I haven’t seen anyone mention yet is that reference to increasing bile excretion. Having been plagued with gallstone so many years I’m your gall bladder stimulator expert- cumin. I buy it pure in bulk and capsulize it myself. I can avoid paying for fillers. I’ll never understand why they have to put fillers in capsules. If I have a stone stuck, I get diarrhea , liquid, yellow, and my husband can tell by my breath. The easiest way to detach it is strong coffee. But there is copper in coffee. So cumin in capsules. I take about 4-5 when I have a stone. 1-2 for maintenance.
On the Facebook group magnesium advocacy they say vitamin c reduces Ceruloplasmin. They recommend vitamin c from whole food sources or whole food supplements only and to stay away from ascorbic acid. They have a protocol for increasing Ceruloplasmin.
thanks Michelle, I’m using raw C. I’ve been following 80 or 90% of the protocol for a long long time. Not taking Boron now because it is a manganese antagonist…
The most important part of all this that you are missing is the Riboflavin. Variants of ATPase genes need more riboflavin (FAD) to work and transport the copper.
http://www.evexdb.org/indirect/ensembl/common-regulators/?keyword=1270,1173&ggp=357
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/217391
I have wilson’s, and this is what saves my liver and is able to keep my numbers low.
So low copper, Flavin Mononucleotide (sublingual), Manganaese, Zinc, and Molybdenum together will do the trick to lower copper and keep it low. The form of riboflavin is important!
Feel free to contact me to talk about the rest of the genetics involved.
fascinating Christian! you won’t believe this coincidence but just a day before reading your message I switched from taking 100 mg of riboflavin at breakfast to 50 mg at breakfast and 50 mg at lunch. I normally nap after lunch but found I was unable to after this change. So your note really got my attention!
How much riboflavin do you take? exclusively the source naturals brand?
What FAD snps do you have and how did you find out?
I’m actually having some of the same symptoms as you. I never had amalgams but I had high mercury exposure at birth due to my mother amalgams and her high seafood consumption. My ceruloplasmin is low and I get high unbound copper in body if I don’t consume high amounts of vitamin c. Possibly restoring glutathione “system” will activate transport proteins for copper and iron? Copper is becoming a real big issue here. I’m starting to think that I don’t have a mercury problem I have a copper one.
yes Eric, but you saw any improvement on this field when you reduced the copper levels? i have extreme pre-ejaculation, my theory is that may be the copper, im still waiting for my analisis results but a feedback from your side will be a good help. thanks
Sorry, I don’t have any relevant information for you. My situation is way too complex to draw any conclusions from what I’m doing with copper. And I don’t have any related symptoms…
Hi Eric, one question did you noticed any significant improvement in sexual intercourse duration after you detoxed from copper? or still the same?
I think I’m still a long way from being detoxed from copper…
Hi Eric! I have read that chelated copper could make one copper toxic. What have you heard about that? Also do you know how high copper could affect methylation/Methylfolate tolerance? For example high copper can cause tight muscles Could this be made worse if one takes folate with a mineral supplement with high copper? Some of the comments suggest some dietary copper is necessary to get it out. What do you think about this? How much would be too much copper in a mineral supplement? In your opinion of course. Thanks.
Rick Malter believes 80% of the population has copper toxicity so I think you’d want to be really careful about taking any copper supplement. You should know your copper status first in my opinion. As for interaction with methylation, I’ve no idea!
Hi …i dont think anyone has probably told u this …but your hair test is indicating u r an undermethylator …please research this …this ties directly in with copper toxicity …i myself am an overmethylator with copper toxicity …u need a walsh institute trained Dr….dr william j walsh also has videos on utube….also mensah medical group has great videos …these drs work together and train drs world wide about copper toxicity and methylation disorders …i was a former med student who got sick and was determined to find out the root causes …i did and ive been helping educate others on these conditions …your hair is also indicating several gene mutations like MTHFR …MTRR …COMT…etc….id be happy to give u lots of information if your interested ….u can test your methylation status by drawing whole blood histamine at a lab corp near u …u can buy this test without a dr at pyroluriatesting.com $60 ….i have no association with these companies at all ..i just merely educate people on how to get the tests needed to get diagnosed with these conditions…the lab range will be 12-127
70 Equals undermethylator
U also have to factor in copper toxicity because high unbound copper drives down histamine
U have b12 deficiency due to mtrr or mtr gene mutations and u need lithium to push b12 into the cells …however u need proper form of b12 for your individual biochemistry…in this case u need methyl b12 …u need other methyl donars as well …and several key nutrients that your lacking to increase methylation and reduce high unbound copper
hi Dana, I’ve been on pretty aggressive methylation support for about two years now – my genetics also show I need lots of methyl folate and methyl B12. I wasn’t aware that lithium plays a role in methylation. I may give that one a go again. I know that I’m probably still not getting enough mfolate because I’m still very sensitive to it at 6mg daily. Quite difficult for me to increase… by the way, my histamine test was normal. Thanks for commenting!
Im afraid your getting the wrong histamine test …and i didnt give all the information i wanted to in the first post ….the only accurate histamine test in the usa is WHOLE BLOOD HISTAMINE. …drawn at LAB CORPS …the range is 12-127
70 equals undermethylator
U also have to factor in high unbound copper because it drives down histamine…so for example you show a wbh of 55 but u have an unbound copper above 25% then more than likely your somewhat undermethylated …because as u reduce unbound copper your wbh will rise! The only drs that truly understand this is walsh institute and mensah medical group…. U can test the proper whole blood histamine through pyroluriatesting.com for $60
thanks Dana. It seems that I did actually get the whole blood is to mean test from Lab Corp and I scored 66. I’ll start looking at my copper and mineral balancing more seriously after eliminating the biotoxins that I know are punishing me so much. Hopefully that’s just a few months away!
Eric im not sure if your aware that dr william j walsh and mensah all worked with dr pfeiffer…when Pfeiffer died they eventually closed that clinic and walsh started the not for profit walsh institute and dr mensah and dr bowman opened mensah medical group
No I don’t really know anything about these doctors..
Ps …mensah medical group has lots of outeach clinics in florida if u still live there …their home clinic is in chicago …u should go see them ….ps …too much vit c decreases bioavailable copper…dont go above 2000 mg …and if your a depressive undermethylator do Not take any folate of any form …folate gobbles up methyl …your methyl production is too low
I’m in Colorado. Are you saying I should avoid methylfolate? That would contradict all the genetic information I have.
Eric yes …your whole blood histamine and hair test indicates undermethylation ….u should not be taking folate in any form cuz u have low methyl production and folate just gobbles up more methyl …u need methyl to make your neurotransmitters…..please watch dr william j walsh and mensah medical groups videos on utube ….i think you’ll find them extremely helpful …they each have their own set of videos …and go to mensah medical groups website and read up ….your welcome to friend request my personal page on facebook too where we can communicate much easier through messenger…ive help hundreds get diagnosed and on their way to mensah for help
thanks Dana, I’ve just watched a bunch of their videos. I know what it feels like when I push up my methylation using strong methyl donors like SAMe and lecithin and ramping up methylation doesn’t make me feel a lot better. I know it’s a really important system and I look forward to optimizing it eventually after I clear my biotoxins. for now though, I need to stay focused on eliminating the pathogens I know are making me feel like garbage. i’ve made great progress so it shouldn’t be too much longer!
Ps eric…u r welcome to join my group on facebook BIOCHEMICAL THERAPY SUPPORT GROUP. …many of us are mensah patients …u can ask lots of questions there and get lots of support
Thanks, I have joined but am so deep into eliminating pathogens right now.. Not ready for mineral balancing yet. I appreciate the offer and will take you up on it.
Dana,
I have been searching for months to find some encouragement and support as I go through this horrible copper detox. I am an overmethylator and have high copper. There are times this process has been excruciating. I would love to hear other positive stories that provide evidence that it is all worth it. Thank you for sharing about the group.
I don’t seem to have a problem with the copper pipes, although only the Water heater has copper pipes, and the rest of the house has galvanized steel. The water going through the copper pipes never exceeds 70 Celsius. I don’t know how hot the element itself gets, or if the elements are weaker/softer, and releases more copper. So far so good with the new element. I’m going purely on experience. Regards
thanks JC!
pls sshare your progress now
detox
well this is my latest hair test – http://howirecovered.wpengine.com/htma-4/ and I will post a quick comment there to update.
Hi Eric. I never thought of copper before I opened the water heater. It then struck me that the Sacrificial anode had a copper colored puss covering it. This may not be from the element, but it got me thinking about copper. I immediately bought a chrome plated element. This had a immediate effect, but after a few weeks, I got even sicker. When I removed the element, I saw that the chrome deteriorated, the copper was showing, and the little water left after draining the heater, was yellow (very bad quality element?). That was when I bought the incoloy element. I also replaced the anode just in case. I have never felt this good since i was a teenager. The only experiment that worked. I also suspect that a residue of some sort is left on clothes when washing them in a washing machine or a water heater with a copper element, because my clothes don’t irritate my skin anymore, after washing them by hand in hot water from the new heating element, using the same soap. My best wishes.
Do you drink the water from your sink JC? I’m assuming you still have copper pipes running from your water heater up to your shower too…
Please beware of copper elements in water heaters. I had terrible health problems for years. After trying everything else first, I found that I felt terribly ill after showering or taking a bath. It came down to the water heater. I replaced the copper element with a incoloy one. 2 weeks later, and I am a new person. The amount of copper released from these elements, especially when used in hard water, is tremendous. I now feel great. Please give it a try. You’ll be amazed.
wow JC, that is a phenomenal tip, congratulations on solving your puzzle!! how did you figure that out? I will definitely pursue that. THANK YOU
OK, the link in the email I get, notifying me of your response, now just shows this: http://howirecovered.wpengine.com/still-copper-toxic-two-years-later/ That means it takes us back to your page, and you can scroll down and now see all the comments instead of what used to just say “73 Comments” and to Click here…but the latter never worked.
But of course, like the other link that used to be there, it doesn’t take me back to my string. And I had to search through a massive amount of posts to find mine. Yikes. My humble opinion is that the system needs tweaking.
You are right, the system needs tweaking, thanks for letting me know!
Well, I guess I’m going to have to leave a separate comment.
Eric, when you reply to a post, I am sent an email showing the reply. You asked what browser I use. When I clicked on the provided link in the email to get back here and to see your question and answer it, this is what the URL shows in the email: http://howirecovered.wpengine.com/still-copper-toxic-two-years-later/comment-page-4/#comment-375441 But when I click on it to come here…..I can see NO comments. So I remove everything after your website title, and here I am. But…I can’t even find where you asked that because I am forced to scroll through every single comment…and couldn’t find it!!
I used both Chrome and Firefox–same issue.
Additionally, you asked “how do you know you are dumping copper and not just reacting badly to the supplements?” When I pressed Reply, it took me all the way to the bottom of the page to comment…as if I’m creating a whole new comment and not a continuation of my first post and your question. ??? I did answer it anyway…and don’t see it. My answer was along the lines that I definitely know when I’m dumping…and have never had gut or stomach issues to supplements.
There is seriously something wrong with the comment section. 🙁 🙁
thanks for helping me troubleshoot the comments subscription feature Janie! I just removed one of the links from the email notification… I’m hoping now you just have a link to the post which should eliminate the confusion. Can you copy and paste the text of the email you receive into a comment?
Eric, just in case you don’t know and it might be happening to others: when I press Reply, and I fill in the comment section and press Submit, the URL then shows something like this: http://howirecovered.wpengine.com/still-copper-toxic-two-years-later/comment-page-4/#comment-375312 And when on a URL like the former, you can’t see any of the comments. It does imply that if you click on the link about seeing the comments, you will…but you don’t. I have to remove everything past howirecovered.com to then be able to see the comments. I at first thought I wasn’t going to be able to continue conversing and it took awhile to figure out what to do.
thanks for that Janie, can you tell me what browser and device you are using?
That is amazing, Alex. If I take even 25 mg copper, I detox miserably.
Hi Eric. I know I’m dumping, believe me. Obvious signs. Do know that I never react to supplements and have never had stomach issues. I do have intestinal bacterial overgrowth as revealed by doing the OAT (and which I highly recommend doing) and I’m treating with Oregano Oil and Berberine three times a day for two weeks.
But I remained amazed how dumping can absolutely wipe me out to the bone. I am suspicious that it may be related to having a Fatty Metabolism blockage (also found that out via OAT) which effects energy levels. I’m treating it, but perhaps the stress of copper dumping on top of the Fatty Metabolism blockage just makes me more wiped out with detoxing than others.
Another new issue I’ve discovered in myself: BOTH high serum iron and high ferritin. I have one mutation of the HFE gene, but normally, that doesn’t have much of a risk of getting hemochromatosis, but….
Just asking about the signs of copper dumping so that I’ll know when it happens to me:)
If your overgrowth treatment doesn’t work, you may want to consider Reishi and possibly fenben… I’m currently dumping bacterial overgrowth!
I discovered I had SUPER high copper last April, 2015 with moderately low zinc and good ceruloplasmin. And the symptoms of high copper were there last fall (frequent headaches), but I didn’t recognize them!!
I started research in April–got off ALL high copper foods and got on molybdenum, zinc, B-vitamins, magnesium, manganese. But lo and behold, found out that TOO MUCH B6 made me feel AWFUL. Later found out I have high sulfates, and that may be why–the B6 was also detoxing those. Also had to be careful with zinc–it pushed me into exhausting detoxing.
Anyway, I have been doing a detox protocol now 5 months, and I am either tired most all the time, or bone deep exhausted when I have a copper dump. My latest dump started just over a week ago…and you talk about TIRED. I dumped a good three days, but I was physically exhausted for 8 more days!!
So I am amazed at your protocol of taking THAT much zinc and molyb. If I did, I’d be in bed for weeks due to the dumping. My fatigue is DEEP from all this and it’s very frustrating.
By the way, I also did an Organic Acids Test (OAT). Though I’d see if I could discern what the high copper might be doing to me. Only one I know for sure–found out I have ” increased cell turnover/cell damage”–that is probably from the copper. I take Vit. C and Vit. E for that. Also saw that I have high Glucarate, which is a detox marker and means my liver is working hard to remove the copper, I believe. I take liver support for that. There are other issues I discovered, so I’m taking l-carnitine, CoQ10 and more….but not sure of an association with the copper.
Janie, how do you know you are dumping copper and not just reacting badly to the supplements?