Too complex?

messyAlex emailed me something yesterday that caught my attention. He wrote:

You seem like you have the analytical attitude to work your way through this mess, a lot fail because it is too complex.

He’s absolutely right that what I’m doing is really complex. On chelation days, I’m filling 25 containers with supplements daily and it takes at least 20 minutes to do. However, I’m doing this because I have this feeling that if I just find the right combination and timing for my supplements and chelators, I might feel well and accelerate my recovery.

But, I think you could get through methylation and chelation with a much simpler protocol. I just like to tinker.

On the other hand, for those deciding on a simpler protocol with less experimentation, the trade-off might mean accepting a higher level of side effects and suffering for a longer period of time. This is the other side of the coin – those side effects probably torpedo many people’s efforts with both chelation and methylation.

augustThis is my August calendar showing additions and increases in supplements along with chelation rounds in purple. One of the complexities that I am grappling with currently is this: the side effects I get from chelation are very similar to the ones I experience when I’m ramping up methylation.

I think that’s because ALA is an ATP support in addition to being a chelator. It feels like this double whammy is limiting my ability to chelate at higher ALA doses.  I’m thinking I need to be careful not to increase any methylation supports for about two weeks preceding a chelation round.

I’m also thinking that I should take a break from chelation while I dedicate some time to increasing my folate and SAMe…

 

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  • avatar

    linda thomas September 25, 2013, 2:28 am

    I just wanted to mention you can get lugols iodine 15% this equals 7. mg per drop from herbhealers.com they are very reputable co. dr sircus also recommends them. It is not real expensive. I have been ordering from them for a long time.

    • avatar

      Eric September 25, 2013, 5:34 pm

      thanks Linda – I’m hesitant to try the 15% because I like to paint it too much. I can do more artwork with the 2% 😀

  • avatar

    Chris Pfeiffer September 20, 2013, 2:52 pm

    Speaking of complex.  What is the timing for your methylation supplements.  I have been taking mine in the morning which seems to guarantee I feel crappy in the early to late afternoon.  I was thinking of moving the B-vitamins to night time.  Any thoughts on doing that?

    • avatar

      Eric September 20, 2013, 5:39 pm

      I think most people with chronic fatigue are at their worst around 4 PM so it might not be the B vitamins. But, I divide my B12 tablets in quarters and take them all through the day stopping around 6 PM. Folate I take upon waking. Carnitine I take one half-hour before breakfast, lunch and dinner. B2 on waking and bedtime. Niacin at bedtime. Biotin, Benfotiamine, Pantothenic Acid and B6 with meals…

    • avatar

      Eric September 20, 2013, 5:41 pm

      It’s good to experiment, so why not try nighttime? However, dividing your doses is a good idea also.

  • avatar

    Tracy September 14, 2013, 11:17 pm

    “Would be interesting to see if you can skip the sublingual and just swallow the b12s now”
    Please explain about swallowing the b12s…I have been on Freddds protocol for 2 1/2 mos, using 40 mg mb12 and 32 mg dibencozide per day sublingually and the citric acid is making my teeth really sensitive, they don’t last long under my tongue so I have to tuck them up in my cheek (also doing iodine and hate using toothpaste for sensitive teeth because of the flouride).  Was just wondering about swallowing the b12 as I thought stomach acid destroyed it
    Thanks, Tracy

    • avatar

      Eric September 15, 2013, 11:48 pm

      hi Tracy, I saw some studies that made it look like sublingual was comparable to oral but I don’t trust those studies as much as I trust Freddd. I’d like to see someone experiment with it who could tell the difference but that would be somebody who’s already mostly healed, not someone just starting out their methylation protocol.

      By the way, for someone just starting you’re taking an awfully large amount of b12s. I read somewhere that just increasing the B12’s when methylation has not started ramping up is ineffective. That it works better to add the cofactors first. Are you already taking Carnitine, TMG, SAMe, B6, Folate etc? If not, you might try backing down to 5 mg mb12 or less while you add the other supports… have you noticed any changes since starting?

      • avatar

        Tracy September 16, 2013, 2:29 pm

        Thanks for anwering!  Yes I am following the complete protocol.  Felt amazing for the first week and crashed for a week, felt good for a few more weeks with varying symptoms, now just coming out of a 3 week crash because I just did to much physical activity. Its hard to feel better and have to go so slow.  

        As far as improvements, I’ve been thinking much better since starting the Active B12 program.  There are ups an downs, but I’m not using True Focus or caffeine every day.  My mood is extremely happy at times, mostly in the morning (when I take my one dose of TMG ??)  I feel my personality is back, I CARE about what is going on around me, my relationships are alive again, and yes some negativity comes with that, but that’s life!  The weakness and pain in my arms (fibromyalgia) from the elbows down to my fingers  is gone – they just FEEL different, but I can’t explain how.

        I recently increased L-carnitine and methylfolate and had a few hours of burning in my left hand and skin a couple of times, I took this as healing.  My neck muscles have been stiff some days but I no longer need to sleep with my “special” pillow that car accident victims use.  Only bad thing that comes and goes painfully is hip, wrist and index finger joint pain on the left side of my body only.  I had a pretty powerful reaction to iodine when I started it, currently take 50 mg a day, so I wonder if in combination with b12s  I’ve moved some heavy metals to my joints, don’t know how to resolve that – any suggestions?

        I am very grateful to have found this protocol.  I won’t stop, I’ve learned that adjusting amounts helps tremedously, it’s complicated but I feel I have life back in my body for the first time in a few years and feel this is the way bacck to health for me.  Thanks for all you’ve done to help us!
         
        (And yes I’m doing it rather quickly, but I would just be a lump on the couch anyway, who knows if it would have been better or worse if I had gone slowily?  I take being alive mentally as extremely valuable.  I have experimented with half Mb12 and I seem to become mentally depressed again.)
         
        One question while I have your attention…..Freddds list of recommended supps has changed….I just changed to Source Naturals dibencozide, now see he is recommending Dibol dibencoplex, where can I purchase this?

         
        THANKS!

        • avatar

          Eric September 17, 2013, 11:41 pm

          Congratulations Tracy and thanks for sharing your great story!! As long as you’re making progress, I wouldn’t start thinking about heavy metals. If your joints are painful, you might try something gentle like yoga, first. I’ve read a lot about MSM and might try it some day, but too many things going on right now to take any more chances…

          When I noticed Freddd was recommending the Anabol Naturals Dibencoplex, I bought a bottle from iherb.com but it is capsules which I don’t want to mess around with opening and dividing. So I am going to just stick with the Source Naturals. Let me know if you try it:)

        • avatar

          Expat Viking September 18, 2013, 1:18 am

          “The weakness and pain in my arms (fibromyalgia) from the elbows down to my fingers  is gone – they just FEEL different, but I can’t explain how.”

          I could be possible that it is related to nerve healing. If you get problems with nerves, they typically show up first at “ends”, i.e. hands and feet. If the pain started in the hands and the spread up the arms, it would indicate nerve damage. This could then respond well to high dose B12. As far as I can recall, Freddd only recommend your level of doses for CNS healing. One indication that it was nerves would be if you during the healing period felt strange sensations in the affected body parts. The “burning” that you talk about can be such a sensation.

          “Only bad thing that comes and goes painfully is hip, wrist and index finger joint pain on the left side of my body only.  I had a pretty powerful reaction to iodine when I started it, currently take 50 mg a day, so I wonder if in combination with b12s  I’ve moved some heavy metals to my joints, don’t know how to resolve that – any suggestions?”

          My guess is that the iodine people would say that your pain is an indication of healing. They claim that the iodine can stimulate the body to start up healing on damaged parts, like old injuries. The consensus seems to be that iodine does not move heavy metals to any meaningful extent, as far as I understand it.  In my case, I got some on and off pain in some joints during chelation with ALA but not from iodine.
           
           
           

  • avatar

    Expat Viking September 3, 2013, 6:54 pm

    “You seem like you have the analytical attitude to work your way through this mess”
    Yes, that very much seems to be the case!

    Regarding the supps, I think that it makes sense to experiment quite a lot in the beginning but it is true that it makes things more complicated. I would say that it took me 9-12 months to find a good mix but even after that I have been tinkering around with doses and new supps.  All in, I am now at 26 supps that I take daily.

    “the side effects I get from chelation are very similar to the ones I experience when I’m ramping up methylation.”
    This was not the case in general for me, but some effects were similar. On the other hand, high dose iodine also seems to cause some of the same effects as chelation.

    “I’m also thinking that I should take a break from chelation while I dedicate some time to increasing my folate and SAMe…”
    Sounds like a great idea! Maybe you can ramp up the methylation supps and the fish oil over a month or two and then when you have found your level you can try higher doses of ALA.

    I am now on day 5 of yet another strict diet and I have managed to get up to 6 pills of the LCF. There was a bit of insomnia along the way…..but it is now gone. Hoping that the diet works this time…
    Finally, another interesting observation: My eye color has clearly changed! It used to be blue mixed with a lot of yellow (it always said “mixed” in my passports) but now they are clear blue! I goggled this and it seems that some people are reporting similar effects over at the iodine forum on Curezone.

    • avatar

      Eric September 3, 2013, 7:54 pm

      Thanks for the vote of confidence Viking!

      I wonder if you will start to taper off some of your supplements now that you are nearing the end of chelation… it is a lot of work to take so many, not to mention expensive.

      Really interesting about your eye color! For months I was noticing something strange about my eyes but had difficulty pinning it down and felt silly mentioning something I could not explain. Somehow, i see more contrast between the white part of my eyeball and the Iris. it might be that the whites of my eyes have become whiter, or that the outside of my iris has become darker. The overall effect is that my eyes look healthier. Had no idea what to attribute that to…

      I guess you are up to 3 g of LCF and it must have been good for you if it caused some insomnia. Look forward to hearing about the results. Do you take SAMe?

      • avatar

        Expat Viking September 3, 2013, 8:35 pm

        “I wonder if you will start to taper off some of your supplements ”
        I tried a few months back to go down on some of them but then felt like I was losing some energy and in general felt a bit worse. Nothing at all dramatic, but it was there. But sure, the plan is to go down in supps. I may also try Tara’s idea of stopping all supps if my current attempt at weight loss fails.

        “For months I was noticing something strange about my eyes but had difficulty pinning it down and felt silly mentioning something I could not explain”
        I know the feeling, i.e. you think that something may be happening but you are not quite sure and if it is happening, you don’t quite know why… I held of talking about my eye color until my wife said that she could see a clear difference.

        “Do you take SAMe”
        No, never. I don’t even quite remember why, but I read a bit about it when I started up. Maybe because I was mainly looking to fix my neuropathy and SAMe was not a major thing for that?

        • avatar

          Eric September 3, 2013, 9:02 pm

          Not trying to push supplement number 27 on you but SAMe is one of the principal methylation supports mentioned by Freddd just about everywhere he mentions LCF…

          SAMe is a naturally occurring compound that is found in almost every tissue and fluid in the body. It is involved in many important processes. SAMe plays a role in the immune system, maintains cell membranes, and helps produce and break down brain chemicals, such as serotonin, melatonin, and dopamine. It works with vitamin B12 and folate (vitamin B9). Being deficient in either vitamin B12 or folate may reduce levels of SAMe in your body. Numerous scientific studies have shown that SAMe helps relieve the pain of osteoarthritis, and other studies suggest that SAMe may help treat depression. Researchers have also examined SAMe’s use in the treatment of fibromyalgia and liver disease, with mixed results. SAMe has been on Life Extension’s TOP TEN list (for 15+ years) of the most important steps to take to ensure optimal longevity. SAMe has been recommended to aging individuals not to just feel better, but also to protect the brain, liver, joints, and other tissues of the body like no other substance.

          • avatar

            Expat viking September 3, 2013, 9:26 pm

            “Being deficient in either vitamin B12 or folate may reduce levels of SAMe in your body”
            Well, after a long time on 10 mg Methyl B12 a day, 10 mg dibencozide 1-2 times a week (and for a few weeks now every day) and 4 mg of metafolin a day, I don’t think that I am deficient any more  🙂
            Maybe SAMe would have been a good thing for me but right now I think that I will pass. Still, I may work wonders for you!
             

            • avatar

              Eric September 3, 2013, 9:36 pm

              You probably do have methylation pretty well covered at this point 😀

              Would be interesting to see if you can skip the sublingual and just swallow the b12s now…

  • avatar

    joe 90 September 2, 2013, 10:06 am

    hi eric
    complexity is a major stumbling block. both to comprehending the problem and to implementing treatment.
    memory deficit which in my case is improving made life at times like  groundhog day.
    some things still worked seemingly independently and my instincts were still quite good however.
    a couple of times i would write things down (reminders for business / travel) and owing to entirely forgetting the first instance would later later write down again. on eventually discovering and comparing the two versions i found that the words and order were near identical.
    thanks to your helpful and informative notes i am going to try the iodine to see if i can make a dent in my cold intollerance
     
     

    • avatar

      Eric September 2, 2013, 4:14 pm

      Good luck with the iodine Joe. My wife is cold all the time but her body temperature is normal and iodine has not helped her feel warmer, so everyone is different… thanks for sharing that funny story about your duplicate notes:)

      • avatar

        joe 90 September 4, 2013, 4:50 am

        hi eric, everyone is indeed different

        a couple of times early on when my temperature was taken underarm the measuring instrument was said to be “broken”. annoyingly i was not compos mentis enough at that time  to ask the questions i would ask now.
        in my case my extremities fare pretty well temperature wise. it is the abdomen which can often feel like a
        block of ice and in the early days resisted all efforts to improve.

        during the course of this condition the only side effect i can recall was that of an anti inflamatory ( administered in france for a herniated disc. i am sure that i have experienced others but by comparison with my daily condition i barely notice them.

        it will probably be a sign of general improvement if and when i do register the side effects and for that reason i look forward to it 🙂
         

        • avatar

          Eric September 4, 2013, 5:41 pm

          Never heard of cold stomach before Joe…

"...nothing ever goes away
until it has taught us
what we need to know.
"
-Pema Chodron

"God, whose law it is that all who learn must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget, falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God."
-Aeschylus

About


My name is Eric - I‘m 48 and saw a doctor for fatigue at 17. I lived fairly normally if a little subdued by lack of endurance at times. But then, 12 years ago I fell into a nosedive after moving to South Florida. Now, I know heavy metal toxicity is a significant source of my troubles along with genetic methylation cycle dysfunction and Lyme disease. I spent 18 months chelating the metals out and starting up methylation but stopped when I felt myself circling the drain. Currently going after Lyme and co-infections. More about me here.

* supplements
* hair test
* genetics
* lessons learned

"Battles are won in their darkest hours. Wars are won by learning something from each battle."
-Eric

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