Sky high with dibencozide

Yesterday my activity and energy level were sky-high! It was the start of my ninth round and typically my most energetic day of the week because the DMSA is a stimulant for me. On top of that, I restarted dibencozide (aka adenosylcobalamin, adenosylb12, adb12, adob12, cobalamide, etc) at 1/8 tablet. It seems to be like a dash of rocket fuel for me and the end result – I spent hours in the workshop, made a trip to the hardware store, went for a walk, stretched, picked up my daughter at gymnastics and all without my usual nap and with my chelation headache (normal for the first day of an increase round).

When I lay down to sleep and closed my eyes I could feel my blood pressure higher than usual. It’s a sign I dread from when I used to use a lot of cortisol and had trouble with insomnia. The increased blood pressure makes my teeth bump against each other slightly when I’m trying to sleep and I noticed that was happening again last night. This time, I was prepared and had forgone my usual nap and taken 2 GABA Relaxers. I fell asleep right away and woke up three hours later – overjoyed even though my chelation alarm still had 30 minutes to go.

I should back up and mention that I took Country Life’s dibencozide, one every day for about five days after reading about it in my research on dizziness. It was the only form available locally and I used it while waiting for the Source Naturals to arrive. The Country Life did energize me somewhat but I also experienced some strange off-balance feelings that would last a second or two and happen every half hour or so. I had no trouble sleeping in spite of taking the entire 3 mg tablet every day.

When the Source Naturals arrived, I took one quarter tablet which seem to me approximately equivalent to the Country Life (in fact slightly less). But, I had much more energy, no off-balance feelings and then a terrible case of insomnia that night. So I gave myself a couple days to recover from the loss of sleep and then started back at half the dose.

I have continued through all this using 1/8 of the Jarrow 1 mg MeCbl. My lightheadedness has diminished quite a bit but I can’t say if that was a gradual effect of stopping Metafolin or related to dibencozide. Reading through the Phoenix Rising thread has convinced me to think of the lightheadedness as a sign of healing and nothing else.

I really got a kick out of Freddd’s explanation of startup effects where he says that for someone with longtime chronic fatigue, implementing active B12 therapy is like taking a car that hasn’t gone over 5 mph in 10 or 15 years, out on the freeway and driving at 70 miles an hour. Think of it as a shakedown cruise where you expect to find lots of shakes and rattles.

Also from reading in the Phoenix Rising thread, I came across the idea of putting my B12 crumbs under my upper lip and noticed that it lasts much longer than under the tongue. Hope I won’t have increased my dose too much…

 Round 9 (2.5 days) – 75 mg DMSA, 25 mg ALA every 3 hours, total chelation days to date: 23.5

  • Monday, May 13: added 1500 mg pantothenic acid. Have switched from country life to source naturals dibencozide and reduced to 1/8 tablet. Significant increase in energy today but headache all afternoon. Using GABA Relaxer for sleep in addition to 25 mg 5-HTP.
  •  Tuesday, May 14: some headache, sleep deprived, hard crash in afternoon, very warm in evening. Hard hard day.
  •  Wednesday, May 15: switched from dry-E to NOW gamma complex. Surprising amount of energy in afternoon.

 

 

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  • avatar

    Michael (NW) November 17, 2015, 11:21 pm

    Hi Eric, I’m MTRR++. I have a HIGH need for active form of B12, (Methylcobalamin). I started taking a sublingual which has both Methylcobalamin (4000mcg) and Adenosylcobalamin (1000mcg). This felt really good. I’ve been on it for about 6 weeks and has seemed to help with lots of stuff. Better mood, energy, less dizzy/lightheaded feelings, less blood sugar/mood dips, etc… BUT!!!! I’ve recently started having bad insomnia again. I did get some good sleep on it, and I would think if Adenosylcobalamin was to cause insomnia for me (too much energy) that it would have happened maybe 1-2 weeks on it, not after 5-6 weeks. But, I’m not sure. Does B12 build up in your system? It’s a water soluable vitamin, but….I wonder if I should take this sublingual every other day, or a couple of days a week then the other days take just Methylcobalamin. I guess it’s a bit of trial and error.

    Cheers.

    • avatar

      Eric November 28, 2015, 4:18 pm

      it’s all trial and error! make sure you take your B12s in the morning and any supplements that might help you sleep in the evening. I’d recommend you try 100 0r 150mg niacin at bedtime especially. I’ve been doing that for quite some time. It will knock down your methylation cycle very quickly and you should sleep better…

  • avatar

    Becket July 30, 2015, 7:46 pm

    Thanks Eric and for those commenting. My daughter Has the MTHFR defect, thus we began the methyl folate and dibencozide while waiting for my test results. I have never had such insomnia in my life. I simply cannot fall asleep until 5am even with 500 mics of Halcion. I was taking the Source Naturals sublingual. Did anyone notice an increase in BMR? My skin temp went to 99.0 within 30 mins of taking the dibencozide, and lasted for three hours.

    Be well, Eric.

    • avatar

      Eric August 2, 2015, 5:49 pm

      Stop the methylfolate and try again with adb12 only – just a crumb. Take regular niacin at bedtime, maybe 1 to 200 mg…

  • avatar

    Michael March 23, 2015, 10:14 pm

    I’ve been taking methly-b12 for some time. But I wanted to try Adenosylcobalamin as I have MTRR ++ and MTR +- methlyation defects. I bought a product that contains Methly-B12 and Adenosylcobalamin in a 80/20 ratio at 2000mcg. It didn’t seem to do much more for me than my normal methly-b12 that I can tell, but, my insomnia is MUCH worse now after 5 days on it. Has anyone had issues with low doses of Adenosylcobalamin causing insomnia? I had severe anxiety/panic, depression and severe insomnia which turned into adrenal fatigue. My anxiety/panic is gone, my depression is lifting, but my adrenal fatigue is still lingering around and so is the insomnia. The insomnia is on/off, well it gets better for 5 days or so, thinking something I’m taking is helping then it gets really bad again a week later for days…. So, the Adenosylcobalamin may not be the culprit.

    • avatar

      Eric March 30, 2015, 11:29 pm

      I like to take my supplements individually to have control over the amounts I’m getting… It’s really hard to tell what’s doing what if you can’t change amounts easily!

  • avatar

    Tara January 6, 2014, 9:37 pm

    Happy I read this thread.  I’ve been feeling symptoms lately of:  extreme drowsiness, sleepiness, nerve vibrations/buzzing, random muscle pains that come hard and then go, blacking out upon standing, head pains, swollen glands in neck, sinus issues, insomnia, and others.  I’m at 10,000 mcg Methyl-B12 and 1200 mcg Methyl-Folate.
    My Anabol Dibencoplex arrived today, and depending how I’m feeling tomorrow, I’d like to give it a try.  They are 10,000 mcg capsules, so based on the previous comments, I’m assuming my target dose should be somewhere around 1/10 of a capsule?  If my mb12 is at 10,000?

    • avatar

      Eric January 6, 2014, 9:45 pm

      Actually, the latest from Freddd is a one-to-one ratio between mb12 and adb12, so that would be one whole dibencoplex capsule for you… have to say I don’t like the idea of you adding in something else with all of those symptoms happening in the background already. Maybe you are going too fast with the folate?

      I’d consider dropping your mb12 way down – maybe to 2 mg. The large dose of mb12 might make you ultra sensitive to folate. If you find you have fewer side effects with a much lower mb12 dose, then I would add adb12 in the 1 to 1 ratio and after you’ve adapted to that, maybe start titrating up for a while before adding some additional folate…

      • avatar

        Tara January 7, 2014, 1:16 am

        Fantastic suggestion.  I will do just that.  Thanks    😉

        • avatar

          Eric January 7, 2014, 5:13 am

          Keep me posted:)

  • avatar

    Mike M July 21, 2013, 2:02 am

    I just looked into getting potassium supplements and I noticed that legally an OTC potassium supplement can’t contain more than 3% of the RDA or about 100 mg. Are you saying that you take 10 tablets? Or do you use some kind of powder? And if the RDA is 3000 mg, then why > 1000 mg a dose that requires doctor supervision? You are supposed to be getting 3000 mg a day from food! Am I confused about something?

    • avatar

      Eric July 21, 2013, 3:25 pm

      I do take 10 tablets of potassium gluconate a day. Couple of reasons:

      1. Did not want to worry at all about potassium deficiency during the methylation startup phase.
      2. 1000 mg of potassium is just a little more than two bananas worth – doesn’t seem like a big deal to me. I don’t eat any bananas either, lol.
      3. My urine challenge test showed thallium which clears faster with a high potassium intake.
      4. I have deranged mineral transport caused by heavy metals. Lots of my symptoms like muscle tightness and hypoglycemia come from mineral imbalances/deficiencies.
      5. Freddd recommends titrating potassium up to see where you feel best. There’s another woman with CFS on Phoenix rising who tells about feeling radically better at high potassium supplementation.
      6. The RDA’s are nonsensical in many cases. Take iodine for example, millions of people in the US are dying needlessly from cancer that would never have happened if they got enough iodine. Millions of others just suffer needlessly with low thyroid because they don’t get enough iodine… see http://www.westonaprice.org/metabolic-disorders/the-great-iodine-debate or http://howirecovered.wpengine.com/the-iodine-crisis/
      • avatar

        Dan October 17, 2014, 6:22 am

        Potassium is available OTC in much higher doses as either potassium chloride or potassium bicarbonate. Both can be found on Amazon or Iherb, etc.. “Now” brand sells the potassium chloride granules. 1/8 teaspoon = 375 milligrams. If you take it with a meal, it can help with digestion, due to the chloride.

        • avatar

          Eric October 17, 2014, 3:37 pm

          That’s correct Dan and I’ve used both of those potassium’s. thanks, Eric

  • avatar

    Mike M July 19, 2013, 4:06 pm

    I’ve taken 1/4 tablet of Source Naturals dibencozide each day for four days now. A DRAMATIC decrease in anxiety, depression, and brain fog. Improvement in mood and energy. However, an increase in insomnia. I had better back off the dose and give myself a few days break.

    • avatar

      Eric July 19, 2013, 4:21 pm

      That’s remarkable Mike, very happy for you!

      I take my Dibencozide at 6 AM along with any other supplements that I think might keep me awake. I only had difficulty sleeping one night but then I also only take one eighth tablet. From my reading, most of the people who had trouble sleeping with adb12 find it just goes away on its own.

      There are also reports that we need a ratio of something like 10 times the amount of mb12 compared to adb12 to avoid irritability. So maybe after a week for adaptation you can start adding a little bit of mb12…

      • avatar

        Mike M July 20, 2013, 6:16 am

        Regarding the 10:1 ratio, the dibencozide has 10 mg dibencozide, equivalent to approx. 8 mg adb12 per tablet, according to the package label. If I take an average of 1 dibencozide tablet per week (1/8 tablet per day), then looking at the Enzymatic Therapy mb12 I got which contains 1 mg B12 per tablet, I would need ten of those mb12 tablets per day. Is this right?

        • avatar

          Eric July 20, 2013, 2:12 pm

          Yes, I think your math is correct but that does seem impractical. I just basically use that ratio to keep in mind that I should take more mb12 than adb12. And that if I get into trouble I should probably reduce the adb12. I started out with 1/8 adb12 and 1/8 mb12 and am now using 1/8 adb12 and 3/4 mb12 tablets. The enzymatic therapy tablets are smaller than the Jarrow (making them hard to divide into eighths) which I started with, so you might begin with 1/4 mb12.

          Remember you should keep some potassium around and take 1000 mg immediately if you get muscle cramps. Two bananas would do the same thing. I take 1000 mg potassium every day without any repercussions that I’m aware of but supposedly you shouldn’t take more than that without the supervision of a doctor. You may also want to keep some niacin on hand in case your methylation startup gets stronger than you want…

          • avatar

            Mike M July 21, 2013, 12:45 am

            Thanks Eric. I’ll get some potassium and niacin. How do I tell if the methylation startup is too strong? What are the symptoms?

            • avatar

              Eric July 21, 2013, 1:57 am

              I get lightheaded as many others do, but there seem to be a wide variety of possibilities. Viking who has commented on my blog a lot got very sleepy and slept a lot. I think other possibilities include feeling jittery, fatigue and headaches…

  • avatar

    Liz from FDC June 5, 2013, 10:02 pm

    Hi Eric
    I have taken Country Life dibencozide 3000mcg x 3 doses, by taking a half tablet at a time under the upper lip. Yesterday (Day 2 of adB12) I had an increase in energy and managed a 7 hr return bus trip to the dentist to deal with the infection post-root canal/amalgam removal (I am now amalgam free!! woohoo!!) Then I went out for an evening professional education event and managed to stay awake for this too. All this despite being on Augmentin antibiotic for the dental infection which has turned my gut liquid.

    I’ve started the Jarrow MeB12 1000mcg this morning. Couldn’t break the bloody thing so I put it under the upper lip for 30 min or so and took it out. Will put it back for 30 min prior to work. Or cut the now somewhat mushy lozenge into smaller bits.

    I know one swallow does not make a summer and there are so many variables eg yesterday I also took a Thorne’s protein powder which has a lot of nutrients added, including a  little methylB12 which I hadn’t noticed previously. Also, its been a bumpy ride, I’m Day 10 post amalgam/root canal removal, with a dental infection which started 5 days ago. Needed a lot of rest 5 days ago, have managed a big day at work, 2 nights out and the interstate trip since then. But I am hopeful that the combination of amalgam/root (rot?) canal removal and adding active B12s will move things in the right direction, along with the iodine and many other supplements. Especially as I am now ready to start DMPS – have the 50 mg capsules and the natty capsule gadget to divide it up into a small starting dose. May be in a few days…
     
    Cheers
     
    Liz

    • avatar

      Eric June 5, 2013, 10:37 pm

      Congratulations on getting the fillings and root canal out, Liz, I’m sure it was not pleasant!

      I’m glad to hear that you may have had an energy boost with the country life Dibencozide. I did not feel a real jolt until I switched to the Source Naturals brand, and although I had trouble sleeping the first night, that has not repeated…

      You may want to get yourself a pill/tablet splitter. I just ordered a bunch from Ebay where I got a better deal than Amazon was showing. I’m still using 1/8s several times a day.

      Hope your infection heals soon!

      – Eric

  • avatar

    Eric May 15, 2013, 4:01 pm

    A short update –  although I slept Monday night, late Tuesday morning I was a wreck  and the whole day was just plain hard bordering on miserable.  waking up during the night really wrecks me and chelation this week has been very hard. just want to be clear that while Monday was a very exciting day, I have a long long way to go. I have been able to fall asleep and have continued to take the same amount of dibencozide every day, but this is a long hard process. no overnight miracle cure!

    • avatar

      Viking Expat May 15, 2013, 4:38 pm

      Here is what I wrote when I was around round 9:
      23 March 2012 – On round, 75 mg ALA

      Midday on day 1, I feel great! No sfx, but a sort of unfocused energy, i.e. feel like I have lots of energy but still cannot really get anything done. Started reading a long report but gave up after a few pages, then went to the garden with big work plans but also gave up. Strange but still quite pleasant feeling!

      Late Day 1. Now feel more restless, like I have had too much coffee. Still OK, but not so pleasant. Also feel a bit anxious and worried. No other meaningful sfx (did feel small pain in head and some joints, including the jaw, but really minor)

      Day 2. Feel good, only small sfx on and off, but went to a movie and noticed that Misophonia is really bad (every sound annoyed me, the film became a pain). Also feel pain in finger joints.

      Day 3. Medium intensity headache. On and off and mainly not around eyes, but more all around in the head, including sinus.  Late on day 3, headache getting worse. Mainly in the middle of head but also some around the eyes. Also feel a bit confused and slow witted. Had to recount my pills several times and feel very unsure of what dose I have taken. Everything is correct, but it is a strong feeling of confusion. Also a bit cold, temp at 36.2. Will try to finish this day and then take a break.

      TOTAL ROUND: 3 full days
       

      • avatar

        Eric May 15, 2013, 10:26 pm

        Impressed, you took great notes!

        I experience many of the same effects. Thanks for sharing that, it’s a really great reminder that I’m not supposed to be cured yet, and it’s all par for the course. The emotional instability I get is almost funny. When I read your message I started thinking about how hard this common experience of chelation is, thinking “this is damn hard… for everyone.” I was in the middle of a little crisis – a PC started smoking this morning in my house when the power supply went bad. Felt a little overwhelmed and was out getting a new power supply when I saw your message. One of my wrists is injured and my good hand is getting overworked starting to cause pain there.

        Not sure if all that’s relevant or not but after I saw your message I started getting emotional. Now a couple hours later with the PC fixed, it’s hard for me to remember what I was thinking or why I was on the verge of tears. Usually around four in the afternoon if I’m having a hard day chelating after a night with does alarms, my thoughts get dark.

        Anyway, I slept better last night and today is going much better, I’m even feeling a little energy in the afternoon which being unusual I attribute to the dibencozide.

        • avatar

          Viking Expat May 15, 2013, 11:06 pm

          “this is damn hard… for everyone.”
          That does seem to be the case……..

          “Not sure if all that’s relevant or not but after I saw your message I started getting emotional”
          I got that as well on some rounds. Typically short term (a few hours) and very unlike me otherwise, so I am fairly sure that it is related to chelation.

  • avatar

    viking Expat May 14, 2013, 3:44 pm

    “I really got a kick out of Freddd’s explanation of startup effects where he explains that for someone with longtime chronic fatigue, implementing active B12 therapy is like taking a car that hasn’t gone over 5 mph in 10 or 15 years, out on the freeway and driving at 70 miles an hour. Think of it as a shakedown cruise where you expect to find lots of weak links.”

    I agree 100% with that description! The weak links one finds seems to differ a lot from person to person but, at least in my case, it was fantastic to feel the 70 mph speed when you had almost given up on ever going above 20…. 

    Have you made any progess on understanding the fish oil – insomnia issue? If it is related to methylation, you may start to tolerate it once your body has adjusted to the B12 and folates. Or maybe not…. 
     
     

    • avatar

      Eric May 14, 2013, 3:52 pm

      “it was fantastic to feel the 70 mph speed”

      yeah! I wish I could feel it more than one day a week… waking during the night ruins the rest of my round. then the day after the round I’m still dragging. that still leaves Saturday and Sunday as possibilities. who knows, maybe I’ll get 2 or 3 good days. I’m sure in time it will happen.

      the fish oil thing will take longer for me to figure out. I’m aiming for 63 mg three days a week. if that works, not sure I would bump it up yet because I have other less risky supplements to increase…

"...nothing ever goes away
until it has taught us
what we need to know.
"
-Pema Chodron

"God, whose law it is that all who learn must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget, falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God."
-Aeschylus

About


My name is Eric - I‘m 48 and saw a doctor for fatigue at 17. I lived fairly normally if a little subdued by lack of endurance at times. But then, 12 years ago I fell into a nosedive after moving to South Florida. Now, I know heavy metal toxicity is a significant source of my troubles along with genetic methylation cycle dysfunction and Lyme disease. I spent 18 months chelating the metals out and starting up methylation but stopped when I felt myself circling the drain. Currently going after Lyme and co-infections. More about me here.

* supplements
* hair test
* genetics
* lessons learned

"Battles are won in their darkest hours. Wars are won by learning something from each battle."
-Eric

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